It is insane that these false teachers have any followers too. No one can make him do that. I believen you may not know that history with JR. Plenty of people who are Christians still have serious medical problem and still need medical care and other care. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. The books you recommended are quite good and I have read them. I thought that the criticisms raised of Barbara & Julie-Anne had been well & plentifully explained by them. However, aswe noted previously,Drug Court only applies to misdemeanor charges. So I was only saying what the Bible says. The point being that even relatively mild hypoglycaemia is known to impair brain function; if I were involved in an accident whilst hypoglycaemic, I would be considered in law to be driving under the influence of medication. Im fortunate in that my Dad did get sober via AA. I felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and also H.A. OK, well, Im not sure if I am in agreement with that view or not. There just arent that many emotionally healthy churches who even know how to genuinely love sober people, let alone the chemically dependent ones. I think that was what Barbara was in part advocating for up thread. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. Because she never appeared even tipsy, few people knew her problem. That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. If nothing else, theyll get a breather. I have been talking about how the church should react in the face of this sort of egregious behavior. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. I agree with all of this but people also need to stop supporting abusive churches. and me: That was the time between his arrest in November 2016 and his plea deal. He had a disease. I said to her When Abby was diagnosed with her brain tumor, what I wouldnt have given for such a disease. There is a difference. But I dont exactly see her saying say, Kick them out of the church! either. Under this plea agreement he will face no prison time, provided he successfully completes the requirements of his probation. Tragedy does not cause alcoholism. And som. The sin is not in the drinking of the wine itself, it is in violating the conscience (vv. Secondly, I am unaware of any Biblical passage that says that having depression is a sin or is worthy of removing someone from fellowship. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. By then he was almost dead from liver failure and heart disease. The record of his life, the record he created and boasted about in his own sermons and publications, the record he established boozing it up in front of his church members, proves that RC Sproul Jr has been abusing the booze for many many years prior to his personal family tragedies. Im not uncomfortable with Barbs rules. Not the family, not the legal system, not the medical people-the church. as opposed to their christian relatives who have been strapped with all manner of convoluted *& conjectured* shoulds and shouldnts. They will learn not to talk about problems and not to seek help for problems, because its obviously not a safe place and they could be publicly humiliated next. You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse. @ Daisy: H.A. Our secretary had to make arrangements (many times) to have him picked up from a bar / tavern because of his condition due to drinking. But sometimes that's where we end up. Blessings to you both. Christiane wrote: No, I saw your list. https://cryingoutforjustice.com/are-abuse-victims-codependent/, We have never banned a person from our blog for using the word codependent. I guess in a way it is a statement that is all some can make at the time, but they do it anyway. Not any system that overlooks his cries for that help. This was still a ways off, so I turned into the first driveway and waited. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Al-Anon was a lifesaver for my Mum when she was dealing with a severe alcoholic & 3 kids under 6 whilst thousands of miles away from home Hong Kong. 2. Few of them are willing and even able to do that. However, I dont believe their marginal successes in any merit the sort of dogmatic enthusiasm you give them. I have known people in 12 step programs getting involved in churches to help maintain their spiritual program of recovery along those lines. Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. I know that mans wisdom can only carry one so far. He died on December 14, 2017 in Altamonte Springs, Florida, USA. i have mental pictures of what everyone looks like wonder how accurate i am. (I think the judge wanted to shake him up.) Thank you, Deb. I think the way these churches do it IS called accountability groups where people are urged to confess everything to the group and Im not sure what happens next . For example check out the DSM regarding personality disorders and note the dysfunctional behaviors attached to the diagnoses and note the link between the dysfunctional behaviors and the diagnosis-not everything is due to some prior trauma-not in the eyes of those whom we trust to know about these things. Yes, indeed; RC Sproul Snr (and his buddy MacArthur) is one of the most dangerous false teachers around, spewing forth a false gospel; and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? So glad you came through it alive and well! Once again Velours advice is pragmatic and sound. I am not sure that you know my background. Max often reminds us that most Baptist churchgoers dont pay much attention to theology. He has suffered tragedies, yes. Please work on that. In my part of the U.S. we thankfully have a variety of lost-cost medical clinics that include psychiatric services. We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. Under what circumstances did you become aware of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a tip off. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. an immoral person, [sexual immorality?] Purge the evil person from among you.. The best thing for him and those in his orbit, his incarceration. Theyve paved the path to hell for their Precious. The consequences of their enabling are far far worse than if theyd just let him have to face the consequences of his bad life choices on his own. Fume. Not just over the alcohol, but based on his other actions (using a cheating site etc) he has disqualified himself. Hi VELOUR, So, I got to thinking, how does sitting in a church help someone conquer alcoholism? And FWIW as an RN I did mostly OB except for one year in public health with my little black bag in the slums of my home town. I have been concerned for some time, like you, about her banning codependency terminology, which is helpful in describing the dynamics in many families. Vesta Voorhis Becomes Bride The Pittsburgh Press (6/13/1960) i think we can do without insinuations like this. 4. Julie Anne wrote: It sounds so evil. I verified this myself, at the site, at the time. By the way if you had bothered to read the post, you can see I did find some help by way of material by MHPs, but I had to find that material on my own, because the MHPs I consulted in person over years were or no help. Finally? Ive been a ligonier for years . Either way you need to stop putting words in other peoples mouths. There is no excuse for it. He allegedly also served children alcohol. I learned at an early age that it can be DEADLY!!! Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions, Its very revealing. She is a white, non hispanic female registered to vote in Seminole County, Florida. Deb, I also meant to say, How horrible for your friend that she lost her parents in such an awful way! Sproul, Jr. being a member of a Foursquare Pentecostal Church (from Valeries quoted comment above). @ refugee: Says that even now, when he sees a half-full glass of wine or beer left over at a restaurant, he has to fight down the urge to run over, grab the glass, and chug the remainder.). I have worked in an alcoholic facility and have lost loved ones to alcoholism. Free Pass : Professional 501(c)3 Pastoral Improper Judgement Permit Provided? From just a casual observation hes not a drunk. As such, faithful Instructions for Christ followers are provided should these unfortunate events occurs providing correction and certain training in righteous, that the body Christ followers would be built up properly unto the unity of the faith, unto to the glory of God Himself! I guess its the just people who have suffered who understand. This comment is where you brought forward Barbaras comment about the question at issue. Leave him alone! Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. Im just acknowledging the reality of what was your life and what is their life. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. This issue has come up several times before on TWW, and I think it has been used at times to excuse bad behavior which perhaps should not have been excused under the idea that people have to be forgiven for bad behavior is there is some history of trauma in their lives. At that point, it makes our comments nothing but gossip. We ran our group from 1985-2002. I will admit one thing, I have never made more than 50 K a year in my entire life and I work 60-90 hours a week which includes much of my advocacy work. But to take that info and post it here? I quoted this post because it has both your posts in it. He has used his position of authority and harmed people. I made a few personal connections with ppl. But should RC Jr be permitted to stay in a pastoral role? The obituary was featured in Orlando Sentinel on December 15, 2017. 1. Hurting people are not the only ones who hurt people. I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. Provisions have also been made in order to detect error, sin, falsehood and the demonstration of improper behavior within the body of Christ believers. . This is done to build up the body of Christ unto the maturity and the unity of the faith. Never reconciled with some of his adult children, became semi reclusive. None of the people I know who have left patriarchy are (so far as I know) recovering alcoholics. Just because this was his first arrest dont assume that this was the first time he did it. Its for good reason that so many have called it a cult.. Unfortunately, less than 10 percent of them receive any treatment.. I am not in that camp as that is an extreme position and there is much more that is known now about helping people with addictions.. I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. BFM2000 is not, to my knowledge, PENAL, rather just substitutionary. understand how sitting in a church service once or twice a week can address the issues of alcoholism, depression, a sore throat, or anything else how can sitting in church heal a person of those things?Daisy wrote: Daisy, O shoot, in case you wondered why I addressed my last comment to you. My point was that RC Jr. appears to be / have been a controlling cult leader, which is similar to what your ex-pastor sounds like from what I remember reading. . Its not your quote. No one has said we shouldnt try. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. (This is confusing me ). Just because that information wasnt provided, however, doesnt mean that hes not seeing a licensed professional. (Is this still considered true? They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. This is a much bigger problem in the church than just R.C. I can see why you loved him, faults and all. I understand. (The passage says these are found in the world, yes and moreover, in the church we are all sinners. There is so much more that is known about alcoholism and addiction. It is ASTOUNDING to me that Christians make excuses for a TWICE DEFROCKED PASTOR. That is a whole different level of bad behavior. And now that Im attacking other Christians for saying that there is something seriously wrong with how these churches carry out Biblical Church Discipline and that its from the Dark Ages. That she didnt address him getting treatment does not necessarily mean she is opposed to the idea. Then it is up to the people who see this going on to stop it. That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. People need to wake up. Many Christians are allowed to live a double life because we are afraid to confront. I weary, honestly I do, of you constantly finding the negative in things and never being able to cite people who you know who have benefited from outside help: 12-Step programs, in-patient treatment programs, therapy, psychiatry, etc. That is exactly what RC Jr. and like-minded men are running, and many are running their cults under the protective coloration of a mainline denomination, such as the PCA or the SBC. Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. I had a wound in between my eyes that was so deep you could see the bone. She also lost her two front teeth, among other serious injuries. They do recommend tough love including setting boundaries as you also said you support. accrue great personal financial gain from donors, or R.C. She died after a 10-year battle with progressive supranuclear palsy, a rare neurological disease for which there is no cure and about which little is known. I got hit by it some 20-odd years ago, when my bathtub plumbing sprung a slow leak into the unit below me, occupied by a retired rummy (retired as in Im Retired!). Through the connections we had made a lot of lives were changed. That is your point of contention, not mine. One from RC Sproul, Jr., verifying where he currently attends church. Leave him alone! https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp. I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. We have occasionally declined to publish a comment which uses the word codependent. The scars are still there but not that noticeable. I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is Those children need help as well. I also am of the opinion that alcohol does not change who a personal fundamentally is. According to the article that Dee quoted, Sproul 2 wont be going to jail. As far as anyone can tell it hasnt been reported on. 5, it is the opportunity Ive been looking for, as pastors dont really teach and preach about this much maybe that is part of the problem. You want to see whence my fury? If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. And she showed that she had no clue what kinds of intervention should be done for an alcoholic (or substance abuser) in getting them into treatment and getting help for their spouse and children. Not impressed. Very true. it seems too public and intrusive for most people, I think; the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. It should also be noted that removing someone from the church, for a time, does not mean they are declared an unbeliever. I sustained serious injuries as well a skull fracture, broken bones, and quite a few cuts (I am blessed that I didnt lose my eyesight because I had lacerations above both eyes). Is there still a scar? She just trotted out a few scripture verses as though that will take care of everything. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. And I use the analogy deliberately, because it has just about all of the dead-end singularities from which no light can ever escape: Thats why a Guild Navigator is indispensable when folding space. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. They generally avoided RC Jr like the plague. And, yes, there is more. Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. Heres my list again to you of the issues, and I have already covered what you have raised in my list in Point #2: That R.C. Sproul was driving under the influence. I dont think he knows what it is to love someone other than himself, and he doesnt do a good job of even that. The odds of his being able to convince a jury of his innocence was remote. @ Friend: Comparisons between yourself and Sproul are a little mismatched. And taking insulin doesnt have a continual negative effect on my choices and behaviour; quite the reverse. If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. In this issue I hope that your apparent hope is justified. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? He sounds like a great big jerk and a control freak. I was raised with the reality that people know what you are doing and it all comes back on you-at school, at church, in your social circle, on the job and wherever. Thank you Lisa for your comments here. This we can all agree on. ++++++++++++++. Geeze Louise. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] I work with a lot of young people who have an alcoholic parent just met a new one today & it guts families & childhoods. He was married to Vesta Ann. Sin leveling at its very finest. Confession that his drunkenness IS sin (it sounds like that alone would be a huge step), then repentance toward God (making a U-turn and living a completely different life) AND toward others (asking forgiveness of everyone he has wronged) these would be HUGE steps for him. RC2 has been off the rails for a long time and has been able to act outrageously under his fathers overt protection. I just happen to see the religious and public aspects of this differently from how you see it. Velour wrote: I believe that the church, as church, needs to stay out of it. BREAKING NEWS: Archbishop Says Church of England Colluded With Sex Abuse At least, from the description. At least, from the description. A scripture in James 1 speaks of the far-greater responsibility church leaders/teachers hold than believers who are not in leadership. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! 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