Viewed from the Earth, the Sun appears to move through the belt . He provided so much information and I feel not only INCREDIBLY pleased with my reading, but that I sincerely have been equipped with so much more knowledge about astrology, my own life and what to expect in the upcoming years. Most astrologers, even if theyre exclusively tropical or sidereal, dont want to write off the other as just wrong. It was probably one of the most therapeutic self-care things I have. Taurus: May 13 to June 19. You certainly would tend to see strong Aries traits in the Vedic chart even though the Sun is not involved. Sidereal zodiac sun sign is used in Indian astrology. Up until the last century or so, before the discoveries of Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and Chiron, the classical rulerships of the signs were used in both systems. The two Zodiac signs that we have today are the Tropical Zodiac and the Sidereal Zodiac. That Tropical Virgo to Sidereal Leo switch will never click in my birth chart lmaooo I've been looking at that shit for 10 years now waiting to feel it I see it in so many other Sidereal Leos but never in myself like not even a little bit. Astrology Skeptic: The tropical and sidereal zodiacs have drifted about 24 degrees apart. From what we can see, the sidereal zodiac is considered fixed because the sky today looks remarkably similar to the one from 2000 years ago. I really like his timing techniques. Here's a link to calculate your Tropical Astrology Chart, and here's a link to calculate your Sidereal Astrology Chart. Im not sure how far we could take the analogy, but keeping it within the framework of astrology itself makes my brain happy ^_^. However, as I was born into the universe? However for this distinction to really work, it would be helpful for the zodiacs to be formally distinguished. Not only was the consultation both fun and interesting but Patricks feedback for the questions I asked him was invaluable. So, to dovetail this line of reasoning with your own, the Tropical zodiac would correspond more to a natal chart, and perhaps the Sidereal could equate more with a progressed chart. Western astrology is the system of astrology most popular in Western countries. . I thought, finally an astrologer with a practical approach, who really knows their stuff, and he has a personality too! Plato offers an unwitting alternative explanation to the tension between the sidereal and tropical zodiacs. Here is the first class of my 102 course on the 12 signs of the zodiac, where the zodiac itself is clearly . In the final analysis I think that the accuracy of any system, depends more on the clarity of intuion of the astrologer than on the system itself. The sidereal zodiac is a 12-fold division of the ecliptic roughly based on the constellations which intersect the ecliptic, so it is fundamentally based on the positions of stars. This option is tempting but the stakes are high. To this end, I think many astrologers are in denial of even acknowledging the widening gap between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs. Since the stars in constellations are unstable, indeterminate and changing in the long term from our perspective, so too do they and sidereal zodiacs attached to them, represent what is incidental and specific to an era in time. From this point of view, Aries is not the home of Mars because the ram is its constellational image, but rather the ram was chosen as the constellational image of Aries because it is the home of Mars and the ram embodies some qualities of Mars. Libra: November 4 to November 22. The sidereal zodiac is not symbolic but is oriented to an observable phenomenon. Patrick was professional, funny, and sensitive to the topics of our discussion. Whilst this isn't a debate of whether one is "better" or "more accurate" than the other, there are some significant differences between the two that should be taken into account. He's thorough in his explanations, knowledgeble and funny at the same time, and he doesn't leave any stone unturned when you ask specific questions. This was an interesting, insightful reading with one of todays leading practitioners of ancient Hellenistic Astrology. And fagan/bradley for divination. He helped me understand some of the conflicts I have been facing with family and career, and even some of the challenges my children have been facing during recent transits. I never knew about some interpretation of my natal placements but Patrick described. Hi Patrick. Under the tropical impeccably dressed Virgo lies the sidereal Leo and Chiron (it's beyond stupid, but I have to . After a long period of axial precession, theyve tried to make it work, theyve gone to counseling, theyve tried reigniting that old spark, but its undeniable that theyve drifted apart. "I have read many articles which describe the action of Pluto in tropical Virgo. Neither would be wrong because its true that we are in a ship in the ocean and that there is an ocean with a ship in it. They can both be right because they are about different things., Those new names for the signs are great! Virgo is a mutable sign. This reminds me in some ways of the debate in music over fixed do and movable do. Ill be keeping this one bookmarked. Tropical Astrology: The year is 100 BC,September. A lot of the lore surrounding particular stars revolves around their position within a constellation. He's a really cool guy with great character. In their astrological interpretation, they used both sidereal and tropical reasoning, according to Robert Hands On the Invariance of the Tropical Zodiac. Great article! Ive been pondering this because ive been experimenting with both chart designs for both natal interpretations and for timing life events. 7 Tropical Balance will like to pair and agree with anyone, under the "rule of a seducing Venus . Therefore, the current mathematical difference between the two systems is about 24 degrees. It gives me some hope for the future, and enhances my understanding of struggles Ive dealt or been dealing with. Each year is like one sign of the zodiac. For instance, the Sun passing into Aries conveys the qualities of Spring active, energetic, vigorous creative new life etc. The difference between the two zodiacs, therefore, is not so much the content of the zodiac but in the calculation of the timing for the starting point of the 1st degree of Aries. Regulus is a star that I will associate with a lion as opposed to tropical Leo if you catch my drift. Our day to day life on earth is integrally effected by the seasons and so to transpose the zodiac over the seasons works. I had a reading yesterday with Patrick, and it was one of the most helpful, thorough and on-target readings of my life. Eventually their resistances are broken down and theyre able to contain a broader, more all encompassing viewpoint. The elements fire, earth, air, water; qualities cardinal, fixed and mutable and general characteristics associated with each sign are basically the same in both systems. Virgo: August 23 - September 22: September 17 - October 17: Libra: September 23 - October 22: October 18 - November 16: Scorpio: October 23 - November 21: . The difference between Vedic or Sidereal astrology and Tropical or Western astrology comes from different ecliptic coordinates. The intersection of the circles of the Same and the Other shows the intersection of what is archetypally incidental and recurring. Tropical is a uniquely western thing and is in the same spirit as imperial measurement. The modality for Leo is fixed and its element is fire. I was referred to Patrick for a reading, because I was specifically interested in a fusion of chart-reading and. The article does not mention that there is only one recognised moving ('tropical') zodiac whilst there are many fixed (inaccurately called 'sidereal') zodiacs, several of which however are within about 3 degrees from the Babylonian practice of a fixed fiducial Star axis from Aldebaran (15 Taurus) to Antares (15 Scorpio) as mentioned by the 20th century Irish astrologer and author . Over the course of a few centuries, the tropical zodiac shifts backward relative to the sidereal zodiac, 1 degree per 72 years, while the stars in the sky (and thus the sidereal fiducial point) will be basically identical. Just as the stars are irregularly scattered about, so would the sidereal zodiac reflect the irregularity of the ocean/weather/climate. I just recently started studying my sidereal chart after strongly identifying with my tropical for most of my (young) life. Tropical date. Needless to say, Patrick is a true pro at it. Im very pleased with and thankful for the natal consultation I had with Patrick Watson; he provided super interesting. In essence, the dates of the sidereal zodiac or astrology . This system divides the year into 12 equal parts, assigning one sign of the Zodiac to each part. 2) Timing recommendations provided by this electional service are based on Patrick Watsons opinion of astrological factors and are not guarantees of desired results, and are not intended to contradict, supersede or be in any way a substitute for the advice of qualified professionals in other fields such as medicine, law or finance, etc. The ayanamsha will be 180 degrees 0 minutes!! My opinion here, is that the sidereal zodiac (and the whole house system) provides us an accurate, albeit not precise view of the cosmos. From this perspective, the friction between the tropical and the sidereal zodiacs comes from a disagreement about the Suns place in the hierarchy relative to other stars. In Sidereal, I have a Cancer ASC. I think God gets a lot of mileage out of people debating and facing their emotional reactions that surface in the process. Some people say that your Western chart is more earthy and represents your personality and your Vedic chart is more spiritual and represents your soul. That they were actually able to calculate this gives us a clue as to how advanced the ancient Vedic civilization was in terms of mathematical and astronomical knowledge. We are experiencing the Easter of all Easters celebrated by all walks of life. What if we took this a step further? His reading for me was profound and answered many questions I had about trends. Here is Part 1 of a live video presentation on the topic of Sidereal and Tropical Zodiacs in Vedic Astrology: Sidereal or Tropical Zodiac in Vedic Astrology. Required fields are marked *. Here is Part 2 - which includes some very helpful animations. But if you reference the GIF above, 200,000 years was enough time for Leo to transform from a regal lion into a demented trapezoidal giraffe. These original constellations, like Gemini, Capricornus, Scorpius, and Cancer, are bands of stars, at various widths, that cluster along the sun's imaginary path around the Eartha path known as the ecliptic. Tropical is more akin to a movable do, in that the order stays the same even though the starting point can change. They'd even schedule, lists and focus on organizing things. In Sidereal astrology,Venus is in Leo here. chart. Thanks a lot for your clarification. them really simply and thoroughly. (5) Since the separation of the two zodiacs occurs at about 50 seconds per year, a little mathematics shows when Fagan-Bradley believed the two zodiacs coincided. Heres a framework to be my base with my tropical chart, and heres the variances that may make my life, experiences, lessons, etc. The twelfth year, like Pisces, has qualities of dissolution and death before the rebirth again with the next Jupiter return. Sidereal, and there's a story about it, in Tropical/Traditional, I have a Leo ASC. , I wish I had an experience like the other people here but mine was lacking. What if there was a way to project our culture onto the stars in a way that was meaningful today? There are 12 zodiac signs (constellations) in these two systems: Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces. I was hooked - watched the videos, read the blog; all of which I found all to be super interesting and in my opinion pretty funny. This makes sense because the ascendant is the starting point of the horoscope and the quickest moving indication in the chart so is could be considered more personally associated with your identity or you. In practice, the ascendant or 1st house relates more to ones self, identity and personality traits than any other house. The sun takes longer than 30 days to travel through the constellation of Virgothe largest constellation of the zodiacbut only a . Interestingly, due to the precession of the equinox, the Sun will be at the 1st degree of Libra at the spring equinox in about 11,200 years! Virgo is associated with purity and hard work. You can see how the stars nearer to us can appear to travel faster than those further away. Not only does he exhibit an extraordinary depth of knowledge, skill, talent, professionalism, and passion in his craft, as well as demonstrate a notably strong capacity to pinpoint the precise timing of imperative events in peoples lives via Zodiacal Releasing & other beautiful techniques, but his approach achieves the ideal balance of kind sensitivity and 100% honesty. If we think the astrological phenomenon is real and has at least some exoteric correlations, then we have to be able to account for its operation in other times. It wouldnt invalidate practice of sidereal astrology because the findings made with it would relate to whats archetypally incidental. His ability to discern multiple levels of information and layer them within the context of the the individual is amazing. Sight-singing with a movable do allows you to sing in different keys by always associating do with the fundamental tone. She rules Libra, . The September equinox is 0 Libra. It is professional astrologer Patrick Watson who does his job best. One common perception of tropical vs sidereal is that tropical changes, because it shifts relative to the stars, while sidereal is a fixed frame of reference because its based on the fixed stars. I really agree astrology needs some freshening up. So heres my proposal. In astrology, sidereal and tropical terms are used to describe two different year meanings. So while the debate about constellations and planets goes on, and which possibility comes to no more than how many angels can dance on the head of a pin super impressed and happy with the reading. Another response is to render the question irrelevant by foregoing the cultural constructs of zodiacs altogether, focusing instead just on planetary geometry. Patrick is a master at chart readings. It cannot be meaningfully done. If your western sign is let's say virgo, but sidereal you are a Leo, with a virgo mercury, you ARE going to think like a Virgo. Wait, I thought that it is Sidereal that moves and Tropical is fixed? In the more distant past, Western astrology was oriented more to the ascendant than the Sun if it had to be limited to one sign. So I learned physics/metaphysics from Ken Wheeler. SIDEREAL: Leo svamsha, its 12th is Cancer. The fundamental differences between them speak to the unique perspectives derived from them, rather than representing the same thing. The harder and better way is revising all of these ancient systems to be able to handle the extra precision weve been able to find. Aries begins where it is visible. Tropical astrologers might have to rethink the meaning of fixed stars. Its As Above/So Below not As Above for a Time and Place/So Below for a Different Time and Place . Leo's often choose the wrong partner and end up with a broken heart. They have the same names as sidereal signs because they used to coincide, but to be properly distinguished they should have different names. The Sidereal position would be 18 . The Moon and Sun rule the signs where the Sun is in the hottest part of the year, Saturn rules the signs where the Sun is in the coldest part of the year, etc. Then again, im just a hobbyist so what do I know? Peace, Love and Cheers. This is what I think the relationship is like between the tropical and sidereal zodiac. Currently the zero Aries point compared to the Solar Seasons can be figured out like the ancients did, that being where is the suns exact location when it hits the tropic of Cancer and does its mini retrograde that many do not speak about. I love it! The Age of Virgo (approximately 15,000 - 12,500 BCE) is an extremely fascinating time. The difference is the tropical system is based on a fixed astrological map of the stars as they were around 0 AD. 4) I accept Patrick Watsons right to refuse service and provide a full refund on the basis of my questions validity or other ethical concerns. The primary difference between Sidereal and Tropical astrology systems is where those signs are placed in the sky. It spans the 150-180th degree of the zodiac, between 152.75 and 180 degree of celestial longitude, which the Tropical zodiac the Sun transits this area on average between August 23 to September 22 each year. I dont agree with you on everything for instance I think if were going to be renaming signs (which, lets be honest, I doubt many will be convinced to do) that the Tropical zodiac should keep the names and symbols since it is supposed to be the unchanging one. Just as the Earth-Sun relationship is stable and unchanging, so would the tropical zodiac reflect the regularity of life on the ship. Since this is subjective, there are many different forms of sidereal. Planetary rulerships belong to the tropical zodiac. Tl, dr: If youre thinking about doing a reading with Patrick, go for it! The sidereal zodiac needs an unambiguous anchor. Its not too doom and gloom nor over the top unrealistic. 100% of his answers to the question Horary are compatible with my life. The question is what sign constellation do you assign to the planets? Neptune: 3 Libra - 23 = 10 Virgo Pluto: 14 Virgo - 23 = 21 Leo. Now here's where it gets complicated. Gotta appreciate an astrologer that doesn't sugarcoat things and analizes everything to the minor detail. Vedic Astrology, despite its pantheon of Gods and attendant mythology shoots the lights outI have to ask myself why this would seem to be so? July 22, 2021: Sun enters sign Leo (120 degrees) Aug 22, 2021: Sun enters sign Virgo (150 degrees) Sep 22, 2021: Sun enters sign Libra (180 degrees) Oct 23, 2021: Sun enters sign Scorpio (210 . The sidereal zodiac is based upon the position of the sun in relation to the star constellations as they appear in the night sky (measured in the early morning when the sun rises). 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