None of the aspects of her role bothered me at all. But he did give a big speech about healthcare before NAFTA came to a vote, right, as I recall? Was this your first opportunity? You were responsible then for recruiting the people who were going to be in it? So that resulted in my having, I suppose, a jack-of-all-trades job. But I dont think Ive ever witnessed, I can only call it a hate campaign, or feeling of hate I guesswhether its a campaign or not I dont knowbut this intense animosity to Bill Clinton and to Hillary Clinton. In the spring of 1991, I think it would have been May or June, we had the chance to have a talk here in New York, and I then talked to him by phone. Im very fond of her, extremely fond of her, and it was, Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. [Mary Todd] Lincoln? I was not involved in the decision as to the sequencing of healthcare versus welfare reform. I spent the last couple of hours of that period in the Oval Office with the President and that was quite unforgettable too because the President was hugely animated, to some extent discouraged, to some extent angry, and there were moments when I was the only one in there with him. How big a group was doing this recasting? WebRoger Altman is Founder and Senior Chairman of Evercore, the most active independent investment bank in the world today. All types of dire predictions were put forward. I think though, if I can repeat myself once, I finished reading a few months ago a marvelous biography of TR [Theodore Roosevelt], the second volume of Edmund Morris work. Earlier in Little Rock, was she in attendance at any of these meetings? I should have said I was either going to or not going to, but anywaySo that meeting came and went and at least nobody at the Treasury thought much about it. There is a Some of thats a function of, for lack of a better word, the culture within the group of people who worked in this administration, so that there is no penalty paid, in effect, among your former colleagues for being outspoken or saying something in the press critical to the President. Well, I was thinking of both actually, but in the bill. So Ira was, to some degree, as youve read thousands of times, off in the corner doing this whole plan. So its clear that the idea about deficit reduction and fiscal policy takes root really during this transition. I might have if I had not known Bob Rubin, but I knew him better than anybody else in the administration knew him and I had great confidence in him and knew that he and I would relate well. I dont believe Yeltsin attended the summit, but there was a lot of focus on Russia and what the G7 could do for Russia at that summit, so it was all kind of nice, uplifting stuff. I started having to respond with a standard boilerplate response to the effect that the RTC has these procedural options and we were choosing among them. But my first point is that that entire team was out there promoting the Presidents economic package, both crisscrossing the country for that purpose, speaking, visiting Congressional districts and so forth, testifying on it of course, visiting one-on-one with members of Congress. Or was it just that you were persuaded that he was going to be a great candidate? Phil Gramm, Ill never forget, predicted that it would usher in a new depressionI mean depression, not recession. Mike Levy, our person, whod been Senator Bentsens primary legislative staffer, was a true pro, and that particular axis worked like a charm. Some of them I think were insincere, but many of them were sincere. Lloyd Bentsen was the very first person we tried when this whole project started, on the urging also of Clintons people because of his age, and they didnt know at that time that he was as ill as he was. He observed to me right off the bat that this was going to be very complicated and no cakewalk, right off the bat. I know Bentsen, especially in retrospect I know Bentsen. I went straight down to Washington and moved in, and I was there on the day the office opened, as were many other people. When we then proceeded on NAFTA [North American Free Trade Agreement], which was the next very dramatic moment. which was a separate agency and Presidential appointment. But that was what one did as Deputy Secretary of the Treasury. You referred earlier to Garys question that most of the decisions that Clinton made about his priorities came post-election, but the process. Then once he started to make the rounds in New York, he generated very considerable positive reaction and became self-fulfilling, and raising money for him became quite a bit easier. We believed our model would attract the most talented senior finance professionals to our firm. It wasnt funny in the conventional sense, but it was just funny. So monetary policy has gone from being considerably more powerful than fiscal policy in 93, to being the only policy in town in 2003. I want to ask one more question about the election because Ross Perots name hasnt come up and been explored. I have always liked Mrs. Clinton and I had a lot of respect for her and do have a lot of respect for her. I remembered him of course, but I dont think he knew me. I was very involved in it but I was notspending probably two-thirds of my time on it. So it depends a lot on the people. He has difficulty speaking. He may have been serving the President, but he hadnt been in public life for all those years, never lost an election, become Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, didnt become a legend in order to sully his own reputation, as he saw it, over some legislation that he thought was misguided from the first moment. So I did a lot of work representing the Treasury on any number of issues in the White House councils of deliberation. How did the second transition compare with that first one in terms of cooperativeness, in terms of being organized and. It was quite a full-bore effort. But, in any event, the presentations were very effective and that was, I think, the most important single day in the evolution of that original policy. Altman gave Could be. I dont know. We can come back and pick up on each of these strains and try to get you to flesh out the skeleton if we can. I dont think I would have known otherwise. He loved it. I know I didnt and I was very involved in trade policy as a whole because much of our trade policy involved Japan and I was very involved in that. Its worth asking. Help us understand why he would elect to move NAFTA at this point? So they came in and interviewed him. There were some folks from the White House Press Secretarys office who were in it. Tweet. As far as healthcare versus welfare reform? No, I just remember the meeting in Little Rock quite vividly, and I think one of the first presentations was given by Allen Blinder about the economic outlook and the extent to which certain amounts of interest rate response would produce likely amounts of growth response. In fact, it was six months before. Obviously Sam Rayburn. But Clinton went for it, Clinton listened, Clinton deserves tremendous credit. But I remember we went to Little Rock. I started doing a lot of the same thing Id done on the economic plan: radio shows, television stuff, running around the country. Im not sure. He may be forever seen in the middle. For example, a year later, the fall following my graduation, I attended the University of Chicago, which was perhaps more than any other university, except the University of Wisconsin, the center of SDS [Students for a Democratic Society] activity. No, I did not. Bob Rubin was the ultimate financial market person, knew the role of the Federal Reserve so well. But in any event, Im sure it wasnt as good as it should have been. Perhaps history will give Clinton credit for having been the man who made welfare reform happen. There was also a whole series of other investigations undertaken at the same time, one by the Office of Government Ethics, one by the Treasury Inspector General, one by the Office of White House Counsel. That notion took hold at that meeting. You referred earlier to the cycles of political partisanship, policy issues. Youd seen him working with domestic policy issues and with members of Congress and support here. In fact, I went out West for vacation and I was interrupted and came back and went to the first of what became endless healthcare meetings. It may have struck people on the outside as unusual, but not if youd been around. When it came to responding within the same news cycle to an allegation or some criticism of the program, we were able to respond immediately, and rapid response became a part of the political lexicon. I was not one who thought the whole idea of putting the First Lady in charge of this was somehow unsound and I always had good relations with Mrs. Clinton, so we communicated pretty well. Im Gary Burtless. But I think in Washington, except in dire emergencies, politics rules, and most Republicans had the view that they would rather die than vote for a tax increase. Ill never forget, it was just a few days after the election and Carter, of course, had been beset by the Iranian hostage crisis and the failure of Desert One and so forth, the rescue effort. There are many people in the administration who dont like the welfare reform that was ultimately signed, believed that Clinton ultimately turned centrist on the issue and anybody could have done that and once you did it as a Democratic President, you were going to have welfare reform. Then we ended up for some strange set of reasons having a giant turnout and he wowed them. It wasnt as simple as that. I was defeated in my effort to become student body president, as, interestingly, was Clinton. I got involved in certain aspects of preparing it, editing it, fine-tuning it, I recall that. We sat there, the two of us, watching it on television, mostly in silence. I took an hour plus to do this. But the program wasnt structured that would give you half a loaf, was it? One of the many stunning things about it is the fact that none of those Republicans paid a price of any kind for that. You had been asked to be a part of that enterprise. I think Henry Kissinger would still be Secretary of State if people had allowed him to be, whatever he thought of who he was serving. Altman donated $41,000 to the Biden Action Fund, a joint fundraising committee, in May, according to Federal Election Commission records. The reason I posed the question the way I did is that since World War II theres been bipartisanship in Presidential leadership on free trade. Once again, were grateful for your time. But wasnt the Clinton economic plan somewhat right-of-center too? And also, the opportunity to finally address what the real economic situation and fiscal situation was. But fundamentally, I was getting those assignments from the legislative staff. So I ended up serving in this job for 12 or 13 months, and I had a very disciplined approach to it. So I felt very chastened by what Gene had said. It had a very different constituency than the economic plan. But its interesting to put it into perspective. Four agents had been killed and others seriously wounded and it was the worst loss of life in the history of the ATF in a single incident. Oh yes, sure. Actually I delivered mine to great jocular reaction, but then Gene Sperling stood up and he talked about the ten reasons why this was a good bill. Of course, the fact of a summit means you have to have some agreement, and we had an agreement. It was a good-sized ballroom here in New York. Were still in the transition period, and now may be the appropriate time to talk about the process by which deficit reduction becomes a clear priority item over some of the other things that were talked about during the course of the campaign. Id met Bentsen a few times. There were a lot of people who did take that candidacy very seriously though, right? I guess I figured, were I to be appointed something, it would likely be in the Treasury, and perhaps, by process of elimination, nothing else seemed logical to me. Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia, Notice of Non-Discrimination and Equal Opportunity. In the very beginning it wasnt as availed of, as it quickly became availed of later. I referred to the Bert Lance affair when I was serving the Clinton administration, and in that case the controller of the currency, who is an independent regulator, was charged with looking into it and delivered a report that ultimately proved to be Bert Lances downfall. Then we put on our battle armor and went back into battle. But, first, right at the outset, it was a terribly flawed idea to have a full-time member of the administration serving also as the head of an independent regulatory agency and that should have dawned on me in the earliest going, just the inherent conflict there. There are some people who wouldsome of the George H. W. Bush people date the partisanship from the budget deal. He did quite well. Did you go to Little Rock for the election? I should double-check that. In fact, Bernard and his late partner, George Katz, were both involved. For the finance minister of an industrialized country to talk down his own currency always proves to be a mistake, always. He managed himself beautifully and with great self-control, and Clinton had very little self-control. They were using very powerful weaponsI think .20 caliber weapons. So Japan arguably has been in a 12- or 14-year slump, but at that time the weakness in the Japanese economy was seen as just cyclical, not structural. Word comes up, you just say nothing. Ive never either been attracted to that approach nor felt that it was an effective one. He predicted them. There was a widespread sense that Japan was taking advantage of the relationshipin various ways. Its rare that an issue divides the Democrats. I stay in touch with him. Of course that depends on the moment in question. So the question naturally arises, was it his economics? Not at the outside, but eventually, I came into the second camp because I began to understand the scope of the issue. I thought he was finished. If you go to Monticello, to his actual tombstone, then you know that he drafted his own epitaph: Governor of Virginia, founder of the University of Virginia, and author of the Declaration of Independence. Well, both is the answer. Yes, actually there was a big debate about healthcare, welfare reform, and NAFTA. So the fact that a variety of people serve a long time, theres nothing mysterious about that, that had nothing to do with Bill Clinton. We had to be sure Mexico could live with it. You should have asked me about the vote, unless youve already talked to enough people about it. But, no, they couldnt have been more cooperative. You had some experience with Japan before? He said, What do you want to do? Or Ill put it another waywe didnt know where the President was on NAFTA on that day. I cant remember allTom Brokaw was there, Davis Weinstock, Dick Beatty, Bob Rubin, George Katz, and/or Bernie Nussbaum were there. But Clintons worked largely because of the people, and mostly Bob Rubin, but anyway, it worked well. Had run successfully for Vice President. Then the President spoke to Kerrey. We wont get into a philosophy, an argument, about causation, I think Reagans Presidency, a bit, goes against what youre saying, thats all. Then there were other people who went down and the press was following all this. Secretary Bentsen had already left. But most of my time was spent on legislation. Id have to do a little homework. She had a million task forces, but the senior one. I have to admit I didnt. Yes, because obviously I was seen as somebody who had business credentials to some degree, conservative credentials, by Democratic standards at least. And, of course, the ATF agents didnt know what they were going to experience and he found himself exposed to an open line of fire. Did you do anything else? Carter had chosen, as you remember, to somehow find a diplomatic solution to that crisis. So actually I didnt have any concerns. I would say that had probably as much to do with the onset of a partisan period as did the Andrews Air Force Base summit, but Im just playing amateur historian here. We came into office, the trade imbalance of payments deficit with Japan had risen to very high levels. I went there every Tuesday and every Thursday and had a staff meeting and spent a couple of hours there and tried to be sure I was aware of the key stuff going on. It is especially important then for the people who worked with him to give us reflections on his role. Thats the way to do it. I did the best I could. Once you get NAFTA behind you, my guess is that there were further discussions at that point about what ought to be next and this is when healthcare becomes a priority. The country needs it, the Democratic Party needs it, I need it. So anyway, within a few days, all of us who had anything to do with the RTC from the point of view of the Treasury were subpoenaed by Fiske. The Times, which is typically, of course, a Democratic-leaning paper, was Clintons severest clinic throughout his whole Presidency, and on Whitewater went crazy. Yes. He wanted to focus on a few important things at any particular time. Most of the people whod been involved in the economic plan or NAFTA for example, werent part of that. No. In other words, Clinton believed that he could charm anyone if he wanted to and Bush believes the same thing. But thats what Congress guys wanted. I do hope as we proceed that you will take the time to give us your continuing perceptions of Bentsen because unfortunately he is somebody we had approached about doing an interview and. If were talking about 1991, I think his ideas were in formation. Bentsen had run for Congress at a very young age, successfully, was re-elected two or three times, then quit and went into business and was very successful in business. I dont. Im just saying that Im a little too close to it because I recall so many of those battles, and I recall so many people feeling that, as you remember, the administration, in some form or other, lost three times, and each time came back with a more conservative version. I think hes deeply appreciated. By and large, most of the members of the Finance Committee in the Senate and the Ways and Means Committee in the House. But also the role of the media had been changing a lot and that role I think manifested itself very vividly in the Clinton years. Will policy differences be the reason that candidate X or candidate Y emerges with the nomination? Fifty Republicans had announced their opposition, 49 Democrats had announced their support, and Bob Kerrey was strolling around, going to the movies, which is what he was doing. I do believe it was able to make a difference. Mr. Altman returned to Washington in 1993 to serve as Deputy Secretary of the U.S. Treasury for two years. Toward the end it was all about these four names or these six names and how do we get their votes. Malibu, California (CA), US. Bentsen had a lucidits hard to describe how lucid Bentsens observations always were. Sure. So we already had quite a taste of the Congressional dynamic and overall political dynamic. @ 34.032138, -118.722249. We still joke about that today. You never saw it. Oh sure, New York is, in terms of Democratic politics, not a terribly big town. We then embarked on a search for a candidate and give or take three or four months later found one who, ironically, was a Republican. And its not the right move to inform a Cabinet officer that his team is Mr. X, Miss Y, and Miss Z. Whether his actual conversation with Dick Morris about the Lewinsky matter is true or not, would the American people accept an apology? Of course, there was Leon Panetta, and Bob Rubin and Lloyd Bentsen, Alice Rivlin, Laura Tyson, myself, Gene Sperling, those were really the main members. Well, after the Presidents unveiling and before the war room, this pre-war room effort at selling, how was that coordinated? But absent such a crisis, history tends not to treat you as a great President. I dont know whether his Presidency will be seen as one of the most important or transformative in American history. Thomas Jefferson is under-appreciated as a President. But as often happens, there is a moment when positions shift. 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