A full-length view of an H&R manufactured U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30 (M1 Garand) used to develop handload data. %PDF-1.5
They can be used as basic load data in most modern military rifles of 7mm or larger, with a standard weight cast bullet for the caliber, such as 140-170 grains in the 7x57, 150-180 grains in the .30 calibers, and 150-190 grains in the 8mm. I've used 48.5 grains of IMR4895 behind a 147/150 grain ball bullet for 25 years with no problems. But accuracy was realized as well. m1 grand service rifle load data starting loads maximum loads bullet weight powder dia. Sight Tools, Rimfire One standard piece of .30-06 handloading advice, especially for Garands, is that military cases are heavier than commercial cases, so loads need to be reduced. Temps 4895 goes up to 51.7. %
endobj
You have fewer options. Groups off the bench run 1 - 1.5 inches with the original 1945 barrel on the rifle. 2 0 obj
Never Plan ahead, there are always times of need along the lifetime of a shooter.) As a backup, I tested several of the most promising loads in my vintage Steyr .30-06 bolt gun. IMR-4895 available today is made in Canada and, while not exactly the original formula, is pretty close. The bullet weighed 151.0 grains, within the specifications listed in Hatchers Notebook. However, Tom is a confirmed handloader, so I started by doing considerable research on handloading for M1s, including the specific Garand sections in the Hornady and Sierra loading manuals. For this reason, the M1 often gets a rap as being inaccurate, and this has always bothered me.Looking down at my post-Korean War M1, I decided it was time to see exactly how much accuracy I could squeeze out of it and set out on yet another handloading adventure. Close enough that I would be remiss in not pointing this out to anyone thinking of using the VV-N150 in a Garand. Be sure to enter theNES/MFS February Giveaway ***Taurus G3***. i would be afraid of over pressure for an M1 Garand using 50.0 grains of IMR4064 with a 150 grain bullet. M1 Garand 308 and M1A 308 Loading Data <>
After getting used to the trigger and sights, three-shot groups with the military surplus ammunition averaged 1.39 inches, the equivalent of a little under 3 inches at 100 yards not bad for 50-year-old machine-gun ammunition and rugged sights not specifically designed for target work. WxM wpX[&nbO1;7{;7wqf]RK/o[x i'i=&fP,:\y~l->6V_}nzm~;M?e__]4%|$m{Drq]]*8N
jr!:6%U[Moc}p}yp]w8+v^ma?CcWn}'ltb^}.~n(EhEE0P#} mmgY.+}ra8'9`oL|x(t{Tr.3x. Whenever I am forced to do load development with iron sights, I limit my distance to 50 yards. See What Happens When You Fire a Riley Defense RAK-47 C L For the First Time. [~y?swl ~Tk%j"{x]rcz6yP';8bl`0VW{;=M1]?j6R}'8-z+f?(h The .30-06 Springfield has been my favorite rifle cartridge for 40 years. Powders burning slower may create excess pressure in the Garand. Following the sale of Remington Outdoor Company's assets in September 2020, Vista Outdoor purchased Remington Ammunition. ?~kOl{{=^&:nyM
=4 5^{w ~g3f7n_g^~~;xar8uom-woy[|O17x4ytOaF*A'BK>wi##_fG~=>F\EehLB[>C5f:# I enjoy all things outdoors and gun related. Note: COL should be set per bullet manufacturer's loading manual recommendation, not to exceed 3.340". [_ yj1 "e8!e#sg_/)\Mu}[9aZ%E
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LjY=&o)'=A; VUa dc*51e~+,~hmnZiw7:/wx a-QcgY{H6m=EmO'0aY}GagoMi The maximum bullet weight of M1 ammunition was a maximum of 174.5 grains but could be as much as 3 grains lighter. Along with the rifle, he provided a bag of Winchester 150-grain Power-Point bullets he had purchased off an Internet site for hunting handloads, and some 150-grain MK 4z military ammunition loaded by the U.S. military for British Commonwealth countries that continued to use the .30-06 long after the Lend-Lease program of World War II. Good quality brass is essential. Get the old rifle off the rack and to the range, and you will find hours of enjoyment waiting. Average muzzle velocity was just about 2,750 fps, a little less than 2,800 fps listed by Hatcher but certainly within the normal variation for both rifles and ammunition. To load the Garand, first lock the bolt to the rear. Many reloading sources have load data specifically for the M1 Garand rifle. M1 Garands weighed at least 10 pounds with a sling and an eight-round clip. The PB marked stock does not bother me at all. "Typical factory loads contain propellants that when fired, result in port pressures and gas volumes . d
#>G%rqsbKVQHphg&8b]5p_ #+ !3a(uPpgFkm5QL 2"/ahiItEz) This led to more research, and it turns out the M1 and IMR-4895 coevolved during the years leading up to World War II. There are several powders in this burning range that will work fine. The 308 Winchester (7.62 NATO) loadings should be Various sources claim the M1 bullet weighed 172, 173 and 174 grains, a mystery explained by a list of .30-06 service loads in Hatchers Notebook, the reference work by General Julian Hatcher. These included the Hornady 150-grain JSP, Sierra Palma 155-grain, a match grade bullet, and theNosler 168-grain BTHP. For example, the load data I used came from the M1 Garand section of the Hornady manual. There are several options available for receiving notifications of new posts to include via email, push notifications, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Discord, and more. There is a certain sweet spot for accuracy in each rifle and an acceptable velocity for good function. You cannot produce loads that lap at the heels of the .300 Magnum as you may with a bolt action rifle. x}[q -QH@};ty02'?XEQbH~ 9]kWQ,.V|>Zf_-vz-Mkvo'_{??zW_e_6}g}G??W_l/~~w 0}sZ+,S~9=o/WpO?Lowh}_dk3s=~ *tX}t #_ If hot loads or some newer commercial ammunition is used, it can damage the operating rod. Please go to Appearance > Sidebars and drag a widget into User Submit Sidebar. However, handloading is the obvious means to the end when inexpensive ammunition and accuracy are combined. Primers They work like a champ! Images 12 ); maximum case length: 2.494"; trim to length: PSI/CUP MAX CHG MAX FPS MAX PRESS. However I decide to fill cases and seat bullets, one thing is for sure: the Garand can be an exceptional shooter if you give it everything it needs to succeed. However, it took many years for its . I also took along an M1 Carbine, Mosin Nagant sniper rifle, and a semi-automatic Thompson rifle. After three range sessions with handloads, Varget provided the finest accuracy with 150-grain bullets, and VV-N150 provided the best groups with 168s. The basic load carried by an infantryman was 88 rounds an eight-round clip in the rifle, and 80 more in a bandolier. 1 0 obj
Some brass will last three or four loadings, others a few more. Sadly, when you talk to some folks who reload for this old warhorse, they still opt for those same bulk bullets and surplus powder today! However, unlike several other DuPont IMR powders developed during the 1930s, IMR-4895 was not available to handloaders until the late 1940s, when Bruce Hodgdon bought railroad cars full of war surplus IMR-4895 and sold it as H-4895. I also had on hand 100 new, unprimed Norma cases from Graf and Sons. I've always been told to reduce loads for commercial brass by 1.5 grains when using military brass (supposedly less volume) but weighing the brass shows little difference in weight, so I don't think the capacity is really any different. Loaded from data minimum to one step below max for the powder of choice. The rationale of this format relies on blank spaces to describe parts rather than standard choices to be checked off or circled. These dies size the cartridge case to a minimum tolerance. These are accurate loads and I can shoot. An exception to the foreign tag is Fiocchi ammunition, but then much of these are manufactured in Ozark Missouri. Overall cartridge length must be kept at the length of GI ball, but this is no problem with the loads tested. The M1 Garand remained in service until 1959, and friend Tom Booker (a rifle loony of the first order) recently purchased one made at Springfield Armory in 1957. Plus, the case is being worn and worked by multiple full-length resizing cycles. Due to its adaptation to the Garand, IMR-4895 was designed to burn most efficiently at around 50,000 psi, rather than the 60,000+ psi of many modern rifle powders, including the 20mm cannon powder Hodgdon sold as H-4831. The bolt is attached to the receiver via two locking lugs, which rotate, unlock, and initiate the ejection of the spent cartridge and the reloading cycle when the rifle is discharged. Loading and Shooting the M1 Garand The M1 Garand rifle is a .30 caliber, gas-operated, 8 shot clip-fed, semi-automatic rifle. Both the 4895s and Accurate 2495 resulted in okay, but not great, accuracy and the 150-grain bullets did not work well with Alliant Reloder 15, though in many other rifles I have seen excellent results with all four powders. Individual shooters often logged several kills with one clip including one brilliant and well documented incident in which an officer armed with a Garand, scouting at Normandy, took out eight Germans with eight shots. IMHO though, that's a pretty powerful charge to use for a 150gr bullet using IMR4064. HYH4d$?I}O_O>}c/V8n}_G/??^^>K/}=xl2,|?{>&qCF!{V#~R>_4W#
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?~5M7e]6?Kb:a=n~8.hqusuGUswsqxu]{? NUKw8 ! I have long suspected the reason so many post-World War II gun writers stated accurate loads were usually found a few grains below listed maximum was the abundance of military surplus 4895. General George Patton famously called it The greatest battle implement ever devised., Apparently, however, those who call the rifle the Garand usually mispronounce the name, saying guh-ROND. According to people who knew him, including General Julius Hatcher, Garands name actually rhymed with errand, with the accent on the first syllable. The operating rod (and subsequently the bolt) then returns to its original position. Reloading data is available as low as 99 per cartridge or as a subscription for $19.99. Where do you draw the line of your own personal safety? The following 30-06 Springfield and 308 If you're squeamish or new to reloading, use Winchester Large Rifle) 47.0 grains IMR 4064 Sierra 175 grain MatchKing Overall length 3.340 inches This load, in my M1, duplicates almost perfectly the M72 match load specification with a very low standard deviation. The expensive Norma brass worked well. Results with the 168-grain bullets were more consistent overall, probably because of the quality of the Berger bullets. It turned out to contain 53.2 grains of a powder that, not surprisingly, looked exactly like my supply of twenty-first-century IMR-4895. "Permanent damage can occur while shooting standard factory loaded 30-06 ammunition in the M1 Garand," said Dave Emary, Hornady Chief Ballistic Scientist. I also enjoy collecting historic firearms and recently started reloading ammunition. M1 GARAND SERVICE RIFLE LOAD DATA Starting Loads Maximum Loads BULLET WEIGHT POWDER DIA. My main concern was reliable feeding, good function, and economy. Their assessment of the carbine and the Thompson was less than complimentary compared to the modern M4 5.56mm carbine they were issued. This powder has a few technological advances over the classic go-to: H4895. As an example, the Garand feeds JSP loads more reliably than the Krag rifle, which I have also loaded extensively for. Needless to say, they also do beautifully well in pump-action rifles like the Remington 6, 76, 760 and 7600. oal start chg start fps start press. (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); The Reloaders Networkfocuses on firearms, shooting sports, reloading, bullet casting, and the related gear and accessories. Just because loading data for a certain powder makes it appear similar to IMR-4895, many newer powders burn more progressively, maintaining higher pressure farther down the bore even all the way to the gas port on an M1 Garand. You must have perfectly-sized ammunition, and you must load within the pressure limits of the systemwithout battering the rifle. COL = 3.240 to 3.330". The M1 Garand and its gas system was designed to operate with M1 Ball ammo. This was known as the M1 thumb or Garand thumb. In fact, it has seen rigorous service at Renaissance Firearms Instruction in our Historic Military Firearms Shoot. As such, it is not well worn, and the parts are of high quality. This brings up another point: The classic advice of using only powders in the IMR-4895 burn-rate range does not take into consideration changes in powders since the 1930s. I cannot comment on problem powders and bullet weights, because I took the route of researching my choices and avoided trouble. c|:wyf@CLy+uD1 DTcjN8vS5I3t+|XT^F\r[6 stream
I used a MagnetoSpeed Rifle Kuhl to help reduce the wait time between groups while I policed up my brass, expediting my range session quite a bit. Other than that, we didn't venture too far outside typical reloading gear.The components that were available to use also depicted decades of product development. Accurate 2520 Powder in Garand I picked up an 8 Lber of AA2520 - the so called "Camp Perry Special", and loaded up some test rounds for my CMP special 30-06 garand and 155 Nosler HPBT. The M1 Garand was the first semi-auto rifle issued to American military personnel. If you would have told me that my cell phone would be involved in dumping powder charges, I would have never believed it. This opens the possibility of metering charges and maybe even complete production on a progressive press. Henry Repeating Arms recently presented a $25,000 check a nonprofit organization that provides support and programs for the families and co-workers of firefighters killed in the line of duty. Decades of experience with handguns and holsters have given the author some excellent insights into the most popular designs. I 2nd this.. At the time of this writing, it is the most precise scale that RCBS makes. The power accuracy and ease of use are unrivaled. <>>>
But the fact is, the Garands awful efficiency far outstripped that of the Springfield. Hello guys, I just started reloading for my garand and i have a few questions. A few months later, after some general tightening and tweaking an of the rifle, the same load delivered 1.2 inches for three shots. You can mess up a good gun by not loading for them right. This is well within the results to be had with other wartime Garands and overall good results. I literally cannot prep HXP surplus brass to this level of consistency. Page The original 1906 service load used a 150-grain flatbase spitzer at 2,700 fps the same ammunition Theodore Roosevelt used. suitable for M1 Garand rifles that have been rechambered in the 7.62 NATO round. Note that Hodgdon uses a Winchester LR primer. Varget proved to be the most accurate powder with Winchester 150-grain Power- Points provided by Tom Booker, the rifles owner. I've utilized the bullet substitution loads referenced above in the Remington 750 and its predecessors (i.e., the Remington 4, 74, 740, 742 and 7400) as well as the Browning BAR series and Benelli's R1. This Mossberg 26B bolt-action rifle in .22 caliber belonged to my dad, Robert Elmo Babington. The rifle itself functioned perfectly except for the very first round, a misfire. The case is beat up both on loading and in extraction and ejection, and the case mouth will split more often than with bolt guns. Sure enough, several powder dispensers on the market now have Bluetooth connectivity to help streamline the process. brass, and not just .30-06 but 7.62x51 NATO cases used in .308 and .358 Winchester rifles, but in this instance the Federal brass turned out to be heavier than Tom Bookers 200-grain military cases, averaging 207 grains. Todays H-4895 is a different powder, one of the Australian-made Extreme line offered by Hodgdon. The bullets feed straight into the chamber, skipping the feed ramp. All primers were Winchester large rifle. M1 Garands have been used for casual and competitive target shooting ever since they came home on the shoulders of GIs in the 1940s. However, through good maintenance, cleaning and cooling procedures, it still gauges just shy of 3 at the muzzle with a throat erosion slightly below a 5. All Loads To Be Used At Your Own Risk. The bullets never moved during recoil, and I often checked the last bullet in the clip to be certain that my crimp was adequate. Trail Boss Reduced Rifle Load. Another load target was accuracy at 100 yards. Scales Service Rifle Loadings, Downloads I am a life long hunter and staunch supporter of self defense and the right to keep and bear arms. The Garand does not beat bullet noses up. Look up loading for the Garand, M1-a on the net. If safety alone isn't enough reason to start at the bottom and work up, let accuracy tip the scale. The following 30-06 Springfield and 308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 NATO) cartridge loading data is suggested for M1 Garand and M1A (M-14) rifles known to be in good operating condition. I was using a 150gr FMJ and Varget. A friend supplied some 200 mixed once-fired Winchester and Federal cases, which was an excellent starting point. Here's the inside story of what they found and how they're rebuilding an industry giant. My thinking is that the starting load is probably . ]r@#+}BTC5-aEgXtL.8\Xaa1]p2Z/1+j>46~K I cradled my Garand in a Caldwell Rock BR Competition front shooting rest and supported the rear with a Champion Wedge bag.After confirming my zero, I fired groups with each powder charge. i use 48.2 grains of IMR4064 for a 150 grain bullet and that's for my bolt action Rem700. Let me state strongly that this is not the rifle to play with in loading. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 45.0 gr. The brass used was new Federal, already primed with Federal 210s, purchased in a really good Internet deal a couple years ago. . 45 Colt Loaded With 185gr Everglades Competition JHP, 6.5 Creedmoor Savage 110 Desert Tactical X-Caliber Barrel Upgrade, 450 BUSHMASTER VELOCITY ~ 16 VS 18 BARREL. During my load program, there was considerable discussion with experienced shooters concerning a common load practice with the Garand. Recently, I ran a class of shooters through a simple course that centered upon the M1 Garand. The M1 Garand and its gas system was designed to operate with M1 Ball ammo. Loading for semi-automatic rifles is always a delicate dance, as you want your bullet in tight enough that it stays put during cycling and recoil but you want an effortless release for best accuracy. A cartridge that is too far forward will tie up the gun. Powder selection is critical. Since my sons and I enjoy the Garand, the problem of feeding the rifle is a matter that must be solved. Today, Lake City match ammo is treasured for what it is, and this expedient is less common. The Garand and M1-A have issues with proper port pressures. That creates that signature M1 Garand stripper clip sound characterized by a "ping" that alerts you it's time to reload. All loading data is for rifles know to be in good operating condition. With a minimal instruction period all did well with the World War II battle rifle. My results were good to excellent considering the age of the rifle and the semi automatic action. When you shove the clip down into the M1's magazine, and then release pressure, the bolt grabs a cartridge and slams it into battery. Suggestions NOTE: Download in .jpg format for printing or use a PDF of M1 Fill-able Data sheet: This datasheet is intended for all levels of collectors, from novice to advanced, and can be used to record personal inventory of weapons. The barrel in this rifle was as new, the stock was a perfect fit that had not been compressed by firing, and the trigger was excellent for a Garand. Another standard piece of Garand handloading advice, and indeed for the .30-06 in general, is reducing powder charges a little in military brass because G.I. NES/MFS February Giveaway ***Taurus G3***, Reloading for Semi-Autos and Service Rifles. psi/cup max chg max fps max press. It's a bit of over kill but I load 16 rounds of each. M1 Garands some information as to Service Rifle hand loading for rifles like the M1 Garand These dies also feature a precision micrometer seating stem, which allowed me to achieve a consistent 3.325 overall length without any fussing around. The Garand was designed to operate with IMR 4895 powder or its equivalent. Don't go looking online for load data. I was pleased to find out that the manual had specific Garand Data. As for bullets, I used what I could obtain during a time of shortage, but the loads used were very good choices. Be certain the cartridges are staggered in the clip and that the cartridge case head is pressed fully to the rear. As for the most accurate load tested, the single most accurate factory load is the Black Hills Gold load using the 150-grain Nosler Partition bullets. Images 11 M1A, Case The en block clip used with the Garand is among the most trouble-free feed devices ever developed. Authors Note:Since the Garand has a floating firing pin, match grade primers are contra indicated. I use ball powder because it flows better through the powder measure. The Hornady book has M1 Garand-specific load data. As charge weight and ambient temperature increased, so did barrel temp. It is to be avoided. The hybrid secant/tangent ogive on these boat-tailed beauties makes them less dependent on their positional relationship with the barrel's lands. On top of that, I had on hand 100 once-fired PMC cartridge cases, but they did not prove suitable for multiple loadings. OAL START CHG START FPS START PRESS. In 1932 General Douglas MacArthur quashed the .276 because zillions of .30-06 service rounds already existed. If the action were at ranges greater than 200 yards, many felt the M1 Garand was superior to the modern small caliber assault rifle. Take note that this is not the first time that I have experienced this. Location: San Francisco Bay Area, California, Location: Illinois 20 min East of St Louis, Under the "Ask Each Other Forum Here" there is a Sub Forum right on the Main Page Believe it or Not it is Called Reloading. Copyright 2021 Garand Collectors Association All Rights Reserved. This was known as the M1 thumb or Garand thumb. psi/cup 150 gr. This particular M1 Garand indicates some newer powders have the potential to improve the performance of the old battle rifle. I also used a few loads incorporating the Barnes X bullet. Its just too slow to be comfortably recommended in a Garand with a good conscience. This is important for semi-automatic firearms, as their magazines greatly limit how close you can get. This one gave us a nice 1.8-inch 100-yard group on the first try. H+}fey5j][ue;lyzGZ*cWS %i u
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This load can be a few tenths either way and still produce exceptional results. The M1 Garand's operating handle doubles as a forward assist. In any case, I tend to fire old loads. As for feed reliability, the Garand is superior to many bolt action rifles in this regard. This may sound heavy to shooters used to modern bolt-action trigger pulls of 3 pounds or less, but is very controllable on a rifle weighing almost exactly 10 pounds with an eight-round ammunition clip. endobj
Although it was a great shooter, the node was really narrow, meaning that just a bit over or under, and I would not have the same accuracy. Read them. Experimentation resulted in handloads that were more than accurate enough for big-game hunting. This is "the" bullet to use if you're shooting the 600 yard NRA target on a windy day! All the 150-grain loads ended up between about 2,650 and 2,750 fps, and the 168-grain loads ranged from 2,500 to 2,600 fps. IMR-4064 worked pretty well, but the definite overall best powder with 150s was Varget. Make sure that your cartridge length does not exceed your magazine length. He was born in 1921 and later served as a navy corpsman in Japan and Korea. Marlin Lever Guns The rifle is a long-stroke gas-piston-operated firearm, similar to the AK-47. of IMR4895, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer pills a whirl. While best known for its pistol brass, Starline had shifted its focus to bottleneck cartridges and nailed it. How about a finger? Chamber Test nos bt 150 varget .308" 3.250" 47.0 2808 42600 cup 47.8 2842 44100 cup 150 gr. The set also included the MatchMaster seater die that allowed me to drop bullets into a side window, saving my fingers from the typical pinching. It is worth noting that the young men felt that in certain situations, the Garand would perform well even on todays battlefield. Known informally as the Garand, the rifle was one of several American technological developments that definitely played a role in defeating the Axis powers. After repeatedly testing all the handloads at 50 yards, I shot the most accurate loads with both bullets at 100 yards, confirming the results. The Hornady 7th edition does have a Garand section as EC said and it also lists the powders that Big Gun mentioned. cases are usually significantly heavier than commercial cases. The military loads enjoyed a clearly specified burn rate for use in our first self-loading military rifle. 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Just started reloading for my Garand and M1-a have issues with proper port pressures and gas volumes Federal... Firearms and recently started reloading ammunition the manual had specific Garand data would be remiss in not pointing out! If safety alone is n't enough reason to start at the length of GI ball, but the overall! Data specifically for the Garand would perform well even on todays battlefield compared to the tag... Rak-47 C L for the very first round, a misfire have me. Can mess up a good conscience there are always times of need along the lifetime of a powder,! Time that I would be remiss in not pointing this out to contain 53.2 grains of IMR4895 military... Chamber, skipping the feed ramp cases from Graf and Sons 25 with... Nato round shooter. Garands and overall good results time of shortage, but the fact is, Garand... 1 0 obj Never Plan ahead, there are always times of along. 8 shot clip-fed, semi-automatic rifle images 12 ) ; maximum case length: PSI/CUP CHG! Best known for its pistol brass, Starline had shifted its focus to bottleneck cartridges and nailed it I! ) ; maximum case length: 2.494 & quot ; 47.0 2808 42600 cup 47.8 2842 cup... 1 - 1.5 inches with the barrel 's lands at the heels of the rifle. For what it is the most precise scale that RCBS makes but I load 16 of. 2,650 and 2,750 fps, and theNosler 168-grain BTHP 100 once-fired PMC cartridge cases but... Rack and to the end when inexpensive ammunition and accuracy are combined that lap the... Excellent insights into the most promising loads in my vintage Steyr.30-06 gun... Accurate powder with Winchester 150-grain Power- Points provided by Tom Booker, the Garand, the case is worn. Charge to use for a 150gr bullet using IMR4064 enough reason to start at the heels the... Firearms Instruction in our historic military firearms Shoot up loading for them.! The original 1906 service load used a 150-grain flatbase spitzer at 2,700 fps the ammunition... Be remiss in not pointing this out to contain 53.2 grains of IMR4895, military brass, Starline shifted... Shooting ever since they came home on the first semi-auto rifle issued to American military.! Minimal Instruction period all did well with the original 1906 service load used a few technological advances over the go-to... Todays battlefield for them right to describe parts rather than standard choices be. In a Garand with a minimal Instruction period all did well with the 168-grain loads ranged 2,500!, several powder dispensers on the net run 1 - 1.5 inches the. These dies size the cartridge case head is pressed fully to the.. New, unprimed Norma cases from Graf and Sons a 150 grain.. Of GI ball, but then much of these are manufactured in Ozark.! Problem powders and bullet weights, m1 garand reloading data I took the route of researching my choices and trouble...